For, a few weeks now my gaming nights have gone like this
Me: Hey dude, want to get a game in?
Friend at FLGS: Sure, what army are you playing?
Me: My Knights.
Friend: Nah, I'll pass then.
Me: /Sad face.
Friend: Turn to another player and say "Want to play a game?"
Friend 2: "Sure!"
Me: WTF!
I am starting to feel a little like this video, though I must disclose that I didn't play Daemon hunters. Most of the reason was because the model range was sooooo limiting. I didn't like that it was the same 5 models over and over again. When I heard about the new GK coming out I knew I was going to jump all over them, it also turns out they are a tough as nails army. Because of this tough as nails status I no feel like this:
So, Im a bit frustrated about being cast out because only one of my friends will play me on any kind of regular basis. I also began to think about how anyone could truly be a competitive player if you 'avoid,' certain armies and players.
Perhaps it is the athlete in me that says "How can you practice properly if you aren't willing to play entire armies, especially when good players are at the helm?" Seriously, playing against tau and necrons all day may feel good for the ego, but I want to play against Thunder-wolves, Vulkan and Leafblower. Why? because that is what I am going to face at a tournament and if I don't play against those armies I won't be as prepared as I could be. We also have some really good players with some tough lists at my FLGS so I feel like Im missing out.
I want to make something clear though, I don't think I am some kind of amazing player. I also don't think that my friends don't want to play me...They just don't want to play my knights. If they did play me Im sure it wouldn't be long (like 1st game) before they were beating GK.
I began thinking to myself, "Why do I even come to gaming nights if I can't get a game in unless I play a lesser army list?" Sure it is fun to chit chat with my friends. But last week I ended up stuffing envelopes alone for Feast of Blades while everyone else played. I could have done that from home and had my wife be happy for me not going to gaming night.
Some of you will just say "play a different army." My response to that is simple F-THAT. I shouldn't have to play something different just to get a game in. You see, I only get one night a week to play (At best) and when I get that night I want to play something that will hone my tournament skills.
So, here is the question of the day. Am I being a WAAC douche? Or am I right in being irritated? If I am right what would you suggest, going to another store to play? Telling my buddies? Or what?
Duke
I find myself in a similar situation,Wedsnday nights is 40k at lgs, and thats the only time i get to whip out my models and throw down. However, I have been finding the same response as your getting, people seem to have a preconception that Grey Knights are over shadowing their armies with all the shiny new guns and overpowered special rules. I had to whip out my old DH list one night because no one wanted to play against the new codex.
ReplyDeletestep 1 Arrive at FLGS and secure game telling opponet you have whatever army they want to play against.
ReplyDeleteStep 2 leave said army in bag, win roll to go first and give it to your opponet. Hold your force in reserve.
Step 3 After he is done deploying, moving in turn 1 and 2, roll for your reserves and bring on GK's.
Duke,
ReplyDeleteYou live in nyc, correct? Where do you play or what is your flgs
Okay, I lol'd at the video. That's a good one...
ReplyDeleteI can understand the point from both points of view. Personally, I don't really mind playing against GK as a general rule, but there are some builds that I just wont play against. For instance, anything that Goatboy builds. :)
I think the potential for lots of fun is there with GK. I think the three problems are psybolt auto-cannons, psychotroke grenades, and excessive psycannon to incinerator ratios. I was actually discussing this very issue with Bigred yesterday at my apartment.
I'll play against any army that limits those three things and doesn't spam. There are so many very cool options in the book that just don't get used enough.
@swags: bag man ftw!
ReplyDelete@black matt: I live in Colorado, you feeling like a road trip?
@BRP: I see what you mean. The hard part is tha it isn't just one person who doesn't want to play. which means I'm playing games on off days against the same guy who doesn't mind. Also, I don't blame you for disliking goatboy builds, he's a jerk. Lol
LOL I thought you mentioned you worked on wall st. Probably my imagination. But yeah I'd go, Colorado is cool!
ReplyDelete@black matt: Nah, I work in portfolio management (wall st.) buy I'm not physically on wall st.
ReplyDeleteIf they do not want to play your army then that is fine. They might be players who do not like to fight imperium on imperium battles. It might also be that they are sick of playing those armies when only a couple of the 15 different codexes make up a large set of the players people can get sick of seeing the same units and game plans over and over.
ReplyDeleteIf you have some highly competitive players who field full on armies all the time then you should try to play them. If they will not play you I guess you would jokingly call them chickens.
Swags comment I can only assume is a joke as essentially anyone who does that is just a total d-bag. Lying to your opponent about your army in any form is cheating.
If you want to practice for a tournament, your best bet will be playing against yourself with grey knights on both sides since every game you will play is going to be grey knights vs grey knights. If you are good at killing grey knights with your grey knights then you should do exceptionally well in the tourneys.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to play for fun don't use grey knights, leafblower, longfang/razorback spam, etc. Build an army with every squad being unique and the game will be fun for both players.
@EC: most of the players at my store are high level tournament players, 2 have won 1st place at ardboyz semi-finals, several travel to major tournaments and do fairly well... So good players isn't anywhere near the problem. It isn't like I'm trying to make fluff bunnies play my uber-army. I get that they may not want to play the same army over an over, but playing against GK would actually be a change of pace and scenery for them. I assume they dont want to play because GK are cheesy, not because they are tired of playing them too often. Lastly, swags is joking, standard procedure there.
ReplyDelete@anon: I would love to play GK vs GK for the reasons you suggest. But has it really come to "Play yourself,"?
Really my point in this isn't to say anything more than it sucks to be in this position simply because of my army. (my rampant cheating is a non-factor lol)
Duke
As others have said, too many people are playing GK's. They are the new codex, one that with very specific builds (and sadly usually are) are tough as nails and hard to beat. I can also say there is some guys at my LGS that was talking about doing a 2vs2 one night, I was going to play in until something came up that prevented me from attending. It was later that it hit me that all THREE was playing GK', while I was fighting over which army to drag to the store with me.
ReplyDeleteAre you a WAAC player? Only those that play around you or rather you should ask yourself. Do you bring lists that are always tournament level? Do you change your lists up? Try different things or are they pretty much the cut and paste lists? I think the answer will surface.
Everyone wants to be the kid to win, that is why so many players are taking up the GK's, then making specific lists...to win. There is a stimga with the newer armies (mainly GK) that your in it to win, not to play and have fun. When you play a list of a new army that has a proven track record and your playing it over and over like a broken record it does tire out people. Nobody wants to try different things, to see if they work or not, they just want the wins of late. This is an attitude I have seen forming in the hobby community of late.
Being the Devil's Advocate:
If you showed up to your LGS to play and say you played 2 games each week, for a total of 8, all was against another GK player. Pretty much with the same list, would you find it boring? That is pretty much the answer your friends could give you about GK's...if you and everyone including their mother is fielding them, yawn! I would be BORED CHITLESS!
@Styx: you very well could be right, but there is only 1 other GK player at our store. He only plays GK sometimes. If it was people getting sick of "the same old thing," then they should stop playing the ray and neuron players every week. though I do play the same list over and over I have only played mainly one person since July (or earlier).
ReplyDeleteThe reasoning i have heard isn't about "being sick of playing the same list," but more of "grey knights are cheap and I don't want to play against them."
I wish one of my buddies would chime in here, cause I'm doing a lot of assuming.
Th_crusade
ReplyDeleteI had a friend who nearly quit a game, because of one game we played where I was testing grey knights. I've had Grey knights since 4th ed. (mainly because I like the fluf and the minis)
I had my own paint scheme by 4th, and now everybody thinks I am using the "typical" GW Mordrak's ghosts painting technique & an über army.
I've been beat down by, orks, marines, guard, and saw a GK vs TAU end in a tau victory.
My opinion, this is what zun-tzu said:
"Supreme excelence is to break the enemy's resistence without fighting"
And that is true in so many ways. If you play with a careless actitude, just ranting about how that GK players is going to pawn you, you will eventually loose. GK's have many weak points, but they are hard to see at first glance, If you don't even try to find them, how can you succed?
What I did with my friend was tell him:" Ok then, I play your army, you play my über-GK's, see if they are soo über"
the answer I got: "I don't like that army build, and I haven't mastered yet that codex"
He is clearly stating that he would build a better army, more competitive if he played GK, so he would gladly have others play what he doesen't like to play.
It's not the army, it's the player (let's exclude necrons and non-nurgle chaos from this list)Get over New armies mean new tactics, where you can't apply your automated game-play.
I've never had a problem getting in a gaming. Then again I also play Conscript Guard. Yeah, I don't have a high win/loss ratio. So yeah people enjoy beating my army's face in when we play. Yet, fielding the 200 guardsmen I bought is always worth the face beating. People love to come over and watch my army surge across the board and attempt to hack Paladins to pieces. I've leafblowers and Draigowings and I personally think I give them an interesting challenge in holding objectives while trying to remove as many models as turn as possible.
ReplyDeletePoint of comment up front: GW does this about once every other year to someone.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest I've noticed a strong patern, though it's getting stronger as we go along. When the Orks Codex came it, it was head and shoulders above what everyone else was at the time, and got even worse once BRB 5 came out. A year or two later, the Imperial Guard came out, and very quickly set itself up as THE dominant book for a good solid while. Now it's the grey knights. I think the Grey Knights have it worst because they have so many very exotic rules. Most of the things I've heard the worst comments on are things that are completely unique to grey knights, and how they more or less just do whatever they want, whenever they want, enemy build be damned. It's not to say that GW is setting new, holy crap level standards of unbalanced: they've been doing that for years. The difference now is that the competitive scene is a lot bigger, and understandably wants a level playing field.
I hate to sound unsympathetic, and I DEFINATELY remember what it was like for me to go through that two years ago. But the way I see it, you have two choices: either deal with it, or quit. You have the benefit of owning other armies, so quitting isn't as final for you as it was for me at that time. But the bottom line is, if people don't want to play at a tournament level, why should you be upset when they agree to more "easy mode" game? Remember that this is thier precious relaxation time too, and getting monkey stompped to help another person train, friend or not, is not very relaxing.
On a side note, If you want to train, I highly recomend that you co-ordinate a regular "Training event". no entry fee, no prizes, just a strait up tournament level todo with bragging rights on the line. you don't even have to keep score, just use that nifty "mission generator" I saw you invent a few years back, and have at. You may get a better response to your needs if people are prepared for them.
ReplyDeleteMeet social pressure. You can be annoyed, but it won't do anything. Don't expect them to change their minds, it's their prerogative. Either switch armies or switch stores, your call it seems.
ReplyDeleteI talked to one of my buddies who wants to bring his game up a bit, we have decided that the only way we both are going to get better is to play hard lists against eachother.
ReplyDeleteOddly enough the best games I have are hard fought games with though lists, when you draw primary, secondary and tertiary and only win by less than 100 VP
As far as what to do, Im going to give it a month or two and see if people open up to GK a bit more.
Duke
@eriochrome, yes, is a joke. ;)
ReplyDelete@Duke, you can buy me a ticket and I will play you all day long if you want.
Swags: it's on like donkey kong!
ReplyDeleteI'll come down and play you sometime, the DEldar are always excited to get tabled by GK douchebaggery. :-p
ReplyDeleteI can understand why people don't want to play against GK - it's a tough army, that does well against pretty much every other list. It gets a little sad-faced playing them a lot.
However, I'm of a like mind with you - I always want to play the toughest lists/matchups, so that I know what I can do when it actually 'matters.' I'm a little surprised nobody from your shop wants to play you - I don't even think your list is necessarily super spammy or impossible to deal with.
People want to win a lot, and so do I - I guess I just prefer to lose to good armies in practice than mediocre armies at tournaments.
As a sidenote, I would argue that Tau are still strong in the hands of a good player. I haven't had an easy game against Tau for over a year...
I play at Duke's LGS and as soon as I get my World Eaters built and painted, I promise I'll let you curb-stomp me on a regular basis with your GKs.....
ReplyDeleteIn the mean time, most of the competitive guys at the store have been in perpetual tournament mode since July...first was Feast of Blades qualifiers, then Ardboyz Prelims...then Tacticon..then Ardboyz Semis and now a slight pause. During this pause we've got guys playing Sisters, Necrons, and Tau while there are Guard, Orks and Dark Eldar sitting on the shelf. We still have Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, Vanilla Marines and Wolves being played on a regular basis but I think people are slightly burned out right now. Soon, they'll be prepping for FoB and I think you'll get more takers.
I'm a WHFB competitive player and have suffered through the same burn-out lately. I DON'T want to play uber-competitive lists right now..I don't want to play any games right now..hence the foray into 40K World Eaters. I just want to build and paint them and get some games in that I doubt I'll win, I mean look at the army I picked...
I will say in all honesty, and I hear a lot of what is said around this store, that no one has an issue with Duke. That said, I rarely hear anything good about GKs as far as playing against them. Between the Psychic powers, Paladins, Psyflemen, and the Grenades there are a lot of things people don't want to play against when they're just here to chill out and have some fun.
Lastly, if you just want a game play your Blood Angels or Eldar..my bet is you'll get one easier.
I recommend having different sorts of armies available for play. Like a WD battle report army and a competitive tournament army. If they don't want to play against the goods whip out the challenging army to build up your generalship with weaker lists and units. It gives you an opportunity to try something new. Many players are just not interested in preparing for competitive events or those events at all. The evidence is the BoLS comment feed.
ReplyDeleteSadly, it sounds like the community is getting tired of the Grey Knights. I don't blame people for making armies of them, but they're incredibly boring to play against, especially with how many of them are out there and how similar most players tend to make their lists.
ReplyDeleteTry taking a totally unique list, don't cheese it up and you'll probably have more willing opponents.
Because people want to have fun and if you've gotten a GK army recently people assume (and are right about 75% of the time) that you're a WAAC-git-beardy-cheese-monger. They'd rather spend time having fun than loose to a better army rather than a better player (even if your army is crap and you are a great player!)
ReplyDelete"my friends don't want to play me" and then you go on to whine about your friends being dickheads for a few more paragraphs.
ReplyDeleteShut the fuck up. No seriously, you just have shitty friends. Get new ones to play and have fun with like everyone else. Don't get on your blog and whine about the whole fucking game just because some dick doesn't want to play against you.
wow to previous post by anonymous, troll much? Nice nerd rage hiding behind the internet, way to man up... I 40k junkie think you are a dick.
ReplyDeleteTo the original topic: Some people play the game for fun, and some play to compete. A fun player avoiding grey knights is understandable, but a competitive player avoiding them is cowardice. To them I ask if they happy living in fear of being proven a bad player.
This is probably a very touchy subject with some people.
ReplyDeleteIf poor schmuck gets 3 or 4 hours away from his screaming kids, pooping pets, and overbearing wife once a week he might not want to spend it taking all his little plastic dudes out and setting them up only to have to take them all off again over and over against the same army (GK's in this case). Who are you to judge how he spends his time? Maybe hes casual and not really interested in taking his game to the next level, unable to instantly recall bolter stats at the drop of a hat(is it ap4 or ap5?), etc etc.
Id suggest that you think if youd rather play your GK's or nto not play at all. If youd rather play, then maybe bring a 2nd list and proxy them as vanilla marines, or chaos or whatever so that way if someone says they dont want to play your GK's you can whip out your other list and offer to proxy them.
IT was a really strong video, actually I¡'d like to watch it again in order to realize about the despotism people lived in that period of time.
Delete